From: Rob Sacks (editor_at_realization.org)
Date: 2001-04-17 05:56:04
Hi Jim,
> Actually, I think you may be able to do more with this
> existing software than you think you can...
That's because I didn't explain all the limitations fully! :)
Right now the logic can look at only one frequency band
at a time, so you can't test SMR and theta simultaneously.
I didn't mention this in my last post because this
limitation is something I can fix myself with very little
labor (unlike the two missing pieces I did mention, which
would require more work on my part, since they involve
areas of programming with which I have no experience
and little experience respectively).
> ...and I emailed them to try to get permission to make it
> available to the group members here.
Thanks. It sounds like something I'd like to reprint
on my website (http://www.realization.org.)
The reason I got interested in neurofeedback
(about eight months ago) was to experiment with
it as a meditation aid. (I've been meditating for
about 30 years.) That's why I bought the BrainMaster,
and that's why I started writing my program immediately
after -- in the beginning it was for my own use, not
for business. The first thing I tried was boosting
alpha (because I had read Jim Hardt's famous
article about his experience when he was a student).
I was able to make this happen very soon after
I started, and the subjective effects were extremely
obvious -- a sort of trancey wooziness -- but they
weren't anything I associate with mindfulness
and I quickly lost interest. I don't believe, however,
that I ever got to the point of theta/alpha crossover,
so maybe I should experiment some more. If somebody
or something could convince me that these gadgets can
be used to assist in the kind of medition that can lead
to liberation, I would become interested again.
> I guess my problem is that I just don't want to
> recommend it to anyone without giving them some
> kind of warning about potential problems and
> then have them experience something bad.
Based on my own experience I think this is wise.
My experience is based on binaural entrainment
rather than neurofeedback, but I imagine it's
relevant. I spent about a week last fall at a
retreat at the Synchronicity Foundation where
the participants were bombarded for hours a day
with extreme low-frequency entrainment recordings.
On the last day, I suddenly was overwhelmed with
the most extraordinarily negative feelings about
myself -- certainties that I was a miserable piece
of shit -- feelings like the darkest moments of
adolescence. Luckily I was able to resist being
affected by these feelings to some extent because
I knew they had been caused by the entrainment,
and they only lasted a day or two, but my God --
this stuff could be dangerous.
Regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: <peterson_at_d...>
To: <buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:33 PM
Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Replies to miscellaneous queries
> Here are some gleanings from other peoples' postings that I would
> like to make a few comments on:
>
> >1. It can play only one reward sound at a
> time. This is inadequate because if you
> are trying (for example) to raise one
> frequency and lower another simultaneously,
> you can't hear two separate tones as the
> individual threshholds get crossed. Ideally,
> the way to handle this would be (since the
> program is a Windows program) with
> DirectMusic. This would allow the signals
> to be MIDI sounds -- chords, notes, music,
> instrumental voices, etc.
>
> Reply: Actually, I think you may be able to do more with this
> existing software than you think you can. For example, you _can_
> simultaneously train a person to raise one band and lower another.
> In fact, that's the way it's done in conventional "enhance SMR,
> suppress theta" paradigm used widely in attention deficit training.
> Just set the logic to [Play Tone] IF [SMR>(SMR Threshold)] AND
> [theta<theta threshold)] so the trainee has to get his SMR up and his
> theta down in order to get the signal.
>
> >Elmer Green's paper sounds very interesting.
> Do you have an e-mail address for him?
>
> Reply: No I don't, but his daughter and son-in-law are Pat Norris
> and Steve Fahrion, both widely known in EEG and general biofeedback
> circles, and I emailed them to try to get permission to make it
> available to the group members here. I may end up having to snailmail
> it to people with sufficient interest--assuming I can even get
> permission, of course. Elmer is quite elderly now, probably in his
> late 70's, and he lives a very private life.
>
> >some questions about alpha :
> 1.how much trainig it would take to have stable alpha
> 2.as i understand meditation ,the more experienced you get , you can
> go into slower mind states , according to some japanese research ?
> 3.about delta - don't n.f.b can help you get there while your awake ?
> 4.about theta - what are the dangers , aren't there ways to make
> this travels safe on a personal (or at least without a shrink )
> safer ? because this state has a huge potential .
> same about a-t crossover .
>
> Reply: 1. The longer you practice, the stronger your alpha
> amplitude gets, I don't really know what the limits are. Most
> people have trouble getting over 30 uV or so, but the real masters
> can hit 80 or better.
> 2. The point is not necessarily to go down, down, down in frequency,
> but to increase amplitude at a desired frequency. This could be in
> theta or in alpha, or maybe in high delta.
> 4. The real danger of training in theta applies to those with
> unresolved traumatic memories, etc. from their past. They can
> destabilize themselves into some pretty bad states. I have known ex-
> drinkers to go back on alcohol to cope with the pain of recovered
> memories, have seen some people with histories of self-injury begin
> burning themselves with cigarettes or cutting on themselves with
> knives, and know of one suicide by a patient after he terminated
> himself from neurofeedback treatment.
> On the other hand, I really don't mean to scare you unduly.
> After all, have Dale Walters and others of the old Menninger crowd
> trained many people on alpha-theta for purposes of personal
> development and enhancing creativity. I use it this way myself, but
> then I have already met most of my demons and no longer have much to
> fear from them. Theta and alpha-theta training are perfectly safe
> for many people--most people, in fact. I guess my problem is that I
> just don't want to recommend it to anyone without giving them some
> kind of warning about potential problems and then have them
> experience something bad. If you know yourself and if you have no
> significant history of trauma, abuse or neglect--or, even if you have
> such a history but are confident that you have resolved it, then
> alpha-theta or theta training will likely be useful and rewarding for
> you. If you do try it and find really unpleasant material starting
> to surface, then get someone to help you. Usually all you need to do
> is talk through the experience with a therapist and it will resolve
> fairly quickly.
>
> Shalom
> Jim
>
>
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