From: frans (f.smith_at_c...)
Date: 2001-06-30 05:02:45
Hi Peterson,
I think whe (you and i) have a little comunication
problem. I think (as a ducht man) i cannot express
my-self clearly in englisch).
* i am not angry, why should I ????
* Whe don't steal if whe would use Toms Paper.
The things he wrote can be found everywhere on
the net. Point is whe all study cases, papers etc, and
pick up the essence of the paper. Just like when you
study for college, use books, and finally write a paper
your-self. At the end of your paper you list names of
autors/books wich you have consulted.
* I wrote: eventual whe can make a reverent to Tom
collura.
So whe would not steal from Tom. I think you don't
understand me. Its like this:
Whe do notput the artikel itself on our web-site.
But if i would talk with you about bfb, then you and
all the others would have to look for Toms's paper.
Only logic then that i can tell you in my own words
or inform you in my own words about bfb.
* The paper if found happen to be in files from hackers.
So i saved the paper to share with members.
* I did not steal anything.
* The contents of the paper can be found everywhere
on the web. In fact there are a lot of people having
problems with cord, FDA etc.
*check-out: weird science, alternatieve science,
keely-net, tesla, w. reich, orgone therapy, ruth
brown (radionica), magnetic wave oscillator, etc..
you will find a real battle of freedom there...you will
find lots of cases about fda. Tom's paper in-self is not
new to me.
*But if the group would ask his permission to place the
paper on our web-site, then thats okay.
*BM v.s RS232. I do not hate or attack BM. Why ????
I only pointing out that Tom has his own project.
Working with us could only replace the old BM.
*If i am rigth, then the BM starded the same way as the
rs232.
*I respect Tom for what he has been doing all those
years. Why do you think i cannot see that ?
*whe are not concurent for at the moment. But if rs232
would come to the marked, then BM would be to ex-
pencive. People would by rs232.
*I wrote about the time and money Tom invested.
In fact, to point out that it is only fear to make
some money !!!!!.(for him)
* the BM project is nice, i like the project.
In fact, i once asked if i still could have the
technical details. they send me back my mail.
with no detail or no answer nothing..
* Peterson, i have the bleu print of the BM, in fact its
a simple machine (old technology). So i know that the
BM would be no match for rs232.
Thats why i try to make it clear that if Tom would
join us, whe could work toward a new EEG. Whe
then could name it BM-2 or so. The reason for that
is that a cheap (modern) machine with al lot of people
working on it would damage the BM project.
Tom would benefit from our group. If you read again
you can see that i pointed out the benefits for both of
us. I am not saying he need to...only that is would
be in-logic to wait until a better machine comes.
* You can also read that i wrote: whe could talk to Tom...
* Even if there would be two project, why should i care.
I did not attack Tom, only pointed out that all his work
would be in danger because of a large group working
for free, and building cheap machines.
* I don't know if the group would like to build a EEG
for professionals.
* Today i found a site from an ex-FDA member who
now offering help to people. (speed up fda)
I wrote him al letter to find out more. If you don't make
medical claims then how will you sell the system to
Health-professionals ?. I will send his mail to the group.
*to avoid mis-interpretations in he future, i will
not interfere with organisation, lega stuff anymore.
please forgive me if my englisch is not correct.
Regards, Frans
.
From: peterson_at_d...
To: buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 8:42 PM
Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: LEGAL/FDA
--- In buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com, "frans" <f.smith_at_c...> wrote:
> Hi Moritz,
>
> I found the paper in files from canadian hackers !!!!
> All the files had tho do with hacking and freaking, but
> there where some files about electronics. I found two
> files about biofeedback. The files where written by
> Tom collura. (brainmaster). Whe from buildcheapeeg
> are not bound to ask Tom for permission. In fact whe
> could just re-write the paper, and eventual make a re-
> verent to Tom Collura.
Frans--You are generally a wonderful and idealistic fellow, but I
believe you are wrong here. Why are you angry? Tom has put an
immense amount of work into the BM project, made his design available
to others for years, did not steal anything from anybody, and
eventually developed his device into what is arguably the best low-
cost EEG training device on the market. He continues to improve it,
as witness the new version that handles coherence. If he makes a few
$$ to offset the tremendous work he has done, good for him. I don't
really see us as in competition with him; we are filling a different
niche. I also don't want to see us use other people's property
without permission. Let's find that article on the BM website if
it's still there, and link to it; or otherwise, publish it ourselves
only with Tom's permission and with a link to the BM home page. I
have followed developments in the BM world for years, and have always
been impressed by Tom's character and generosity. And at some point
in the next year, I expect that I will buy a BM, even though I have
every hope for the success of our OpenEEG. There really need not be
a conflict between the two camps.
> I don't think Tom would like to to help us. Not because
> he don't want to, but the brainmaster is an other project.
> It is still running (software). So our group will at the end
> re-place the expencive and old brainmaster.
Tom has no obligation to help us. Nevertheless, he is (or was; I
haven't checked lately) a member of this group, and has corresponded
with Yaniv.
> As a matter of fact, ideal would have been when Tom again starded a
new project for a new device. But he did
> not do so. They (BM) starded software projects.
> So when his project was running they had no reason to
> develop a newer system. Then came others who
> starded a new project (buildcheapeeg). You understand
> that this could be the end of BM. Suppose if Tom had
> contacted our group, then ther would be no problem, for
> the rs232 could replace BM in time, lets say up-grade BM. In fact
when Tom would be a member, whe would
> have already a channel for marketing. RS232 would then
> be the test-name, and BM could then promote the new
> machine. So all BM users and new users could by a much
> cheaper device. The software project from BM could then be
compatible with rs232. Its a fact that an new
> device is only so for some years, like a computer.
> Tom did not joined the group, he could have done so.
> I don't know if he likes the project, but he could know
> that just as his old 486-pc would had to go because of
> pentium, the BM would have to make place for rs232.
>
> The succes of rs232 together with modern computers
> (and lower cost for pc's), and better software could make
> BM a second choice. for the machine uses old technolgy,
> while rs232 is modern, at the same time the price is
> about 800.00 US dollar !!!. No normal thinking man
> would by a BM.
>
> It seems that in the past the BM was patented. So some-
> one (Tom) had to pay for the patend. Also for FDA
> approvement, production, marketing etc..So a lot of in-
> vestment. Is only fair then that Tom would have to ask
> a price so as to earn back all the time and money.
> Therefore a compleet new device, much cheaper would be but an evil
concurent. (afther all, those man starded
> BFB/NFB al long time ago).
>
> If Tom would think logic, he would participate in the
> project. None of us would be against it. In fact, afther
> all the basics (fda approvement, patent etc) Tom could
> try to sell the system as the new BM. None of us need
> to make a living out of it. In fact, whe would support Tom
> where ever whe could. Make the sytem 100% compatible
> with the BM-open sourche project etc.
>
> Perhaps whe should talk with Tom about this, in time.
> For me it is not logic to wait until some engineers finally
> succeed in building an selling an new device.
>
> Information about FDA can also be found at there web-
> site. Or whe could write to BFB organisations etc.
> however, a FDA approvement could take a long time and
> money. This is where the project could end up dead.
I have argued before, and will continue to argue, that we don't need
FDA approval to develop and put forward our device, provided we don't
make medical claims for it. That's what the disclaimers you and I
worked on are all about.
> for now its the members like me who build those machines for
personal use, and to fool arround..
> If however the project must end up...in the market then
> whe need more members (not technologist) to bring in
> some use-full stuf.
> I don't know if i have posted a message about FDA,
> but i did investigate something like ECG at there site.
> I look if i can find it and post it again.
>
> regards. Frans.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Moritz v. Buttlar
> To: buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [buildcheapeeg] LEGAL/FDA
>
>
>
> Hi frans !
>
> Great text you posted there ! Where did you pick it up ? Maybe we
could ask the
> author if we could post in on our website ?
>
> Moritz
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-
Development
> http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
>
> < open-source neurofeedback project at http://www.openeeg.org !>
>
>
>
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