From: SKYFLYER (skyflyer_at_m...)
Date: 2001-08-12 18:10:05
From: "frans" <f.smith_at_c...>
Date: Fri Aug 10, 2001 11:56 pm
Subject: Re: [buildcheapeeg] The cheapest biofeedback device
----- Original Message -----
From: SKYFLYER
To: buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [buildcheapeeg] The cheapest biofeedback device
However, I believe NFB can do the most to bring people into the state of pre-enlightment.
* enlightment means one is not bound to earth or material things anymore. One is free from
the physical world witch operates under maya (cosmic illusion). Also, enlightment is the
result of years of training. There where yogi who lived all therelives alone to find it, an yet
they did not came that far. Enlightment means also one has reached the highest under-
standing.
**Enlightment means one has returned to his original state of mind.And he has found
his true-self. From there on, he is free from all doubts and questions.
**I know many who reached enlightment within one year. The fastestone took only 3 months.
The difference is that they all found the right method for them.
* Pre-enlightment ???, you realy think this could be done with NFB,only because you would
use NFB to reproduce the brain-patterns of a master ? Where thenis thew knowledge ?
where is the xperience ??...experience comes from years of meditation etc..
**Only we can make the difference, not NFB. All I could think of now is using specially
designed NFB games to help people reaching that state of mind.
* A normal man has not even knowlegde of his owm sub-conciousness, not even knowlegde
of his own body, not to say, knowledge and skills. I have two eeg's, i can train my-self in
theta, but would i then think different of material stuff ?, would i not like female anymore ??
would i posess knowledge......i think not...
**We do not need knowledge of love in order to love. If we love with knowledge then
our love would be conditional. Knowledge is in fact an obstacle toenlightment. The
keypoint is "Who is in charge?" Ourselves or our knowledge?
*Before you think its possible, read and learn about the occult schools. also learn about the
eastern psychology......
**I am practicing Chan(Zen) and I am from Taipei.
*NFB/BFB can help us in meditation, can tell us the state of mind...but even then, it does not
make us free from maya, cosmic illusion.
**Yes, what we need is a comprehensive and effective NFB program.
*It is a fact however that -for example- the theta state can give some interesting effects like
visions, oobe (out of body experience) etc... problem is only that some people reported
fearfull images etc.. whe enter our sub-conciousness and whe cannot understand what is
stored in the sub-conciousness.
**They are all illusions and they are like films been projected on the screen. The
demon won't jump right out of the movie screen and hurt you. They are just harmless images.
Besides, we are the director of the movie. We can make the call for action or cut anytime
we wish if properly trained.
To be enlightened, extra kick is needed.
*What kick ???... to be enlightened one must have deep knowlegde and skills and understand-
ding...earned afther long training...
In the sixties they thougth taking drugs would be the same.......only because they got those
strange effects..(hallucinations)....to my knowledge, none of them became enlightened.....
Today they think using nfb would be the same, or using sound (braintapes)........
People do experience different effects like a feeling of peace, some fear, visions etc...
but that no enlightment....
**I meant mental kick. Eg. If you ask me "What is enlightment?"
I would say "You are already enlightened. How come you don't know it?"
I am telling the truth.
**However, one need to be in the pre-enlightment state in order forthe kick to be working.
*The best thing whe could do is use nfb/bfb to free our self from mental/physical conditions.
Some scientist believe its all in the brain (ganzfield ?)...whe canproduce effects like fear-
full images by stimulating parts of the brain, and a lot more effects...so sience believe whe
could understand enlightment. But enlightment is about the thruth. All the material things
are just an illusion. My body, the world, all illusion... How then can material stuff give us
enlightment ??? when in fact our mind and thougths create matter ???
**Enlightment transcends dichotomy. Material is not different withnon-material.
Yet they are not the same neither. Our bodies won't live without our mind, will it?
If we don't have our bodies existed on earth, then how could we learn to be enlightened?
During NFB training sessions, people needs to be remined in a certain point that this is exactly the state of pre-enlightment. i.e. if the training is effective. And methods would be given to keep their mind in thatstate even when they are not using NFB.
*what is "exacly the state of pre-enlightment ??" a theta state ?, or a brain-pattern witch looks like that of a master ?.
**I know exactly what state of mind it is. In Taipei, there are atleast 10 of my
friends who had reached enlightment know it too. There are many more in other cities and countries.
It will be so pity that if we reach that state without knowing it.
That's why a NFB with the right database is so important.
I am working on it now.
People's will power is the key to achieve that state, not NFB. NFBwould act only as the meter to our state of mind. So, training method is still the most important element in NFB.
*will power works against any form of relaxing or meditation, for it demonstrates resistance.
To my knowlegde every body reacts different. For example in alpha one is relaxed but research shows some
people still have fear in alpha !!!!. Therefore an EEG is very personal.
Training is important, but i don't think Samadi would be the result.
**Real relaxation can only be acquired through training. Believe it or not, we will be 10 times more
relaxed if we could reach the state of pre-enlightment. When enlightened, another 10 times will come.
If not so, then it's not real enlightment. It takes effort, and effort needs will power to succeed.
There is no free lunch even with NFB.
**What's the difference between real relaxation and relaxation acquired from general NFB?
The first difference is the depth of relaxation.
Real relaxation takes us to much deeper state. It is impossible for a general NFB or
brain machine to reach that state. Why?
Because we need to alter the way we used to think. It is usually not easy.
And the NFB must provide such a program that teaches us how to do it.
The other difference is:
One can last, while the other can't.
To make it last, it needs will power. It's just like when we are on a diet.
Once we know the right way to "think" in order to be really relaxed, we still need to maintain it.
It will be natural once we are accustomed to it.
Relaxation is the nature of enlightment.
I would very much like to see the invention of a wireless EEG that people can carry with them anywhere they go just like a walkman. And it would report the state of mind anytime you wish. To do this, a lot of studies need to be performed.
* why do you have to carry an EEG ???, under normal conditions you would probally show beta-waves.
**Enlightened people meditate almost all the time even when they are working.
And the state of relaxation is to be mainained in all conditions even in the need for high performance.
Yes, it's true. All my enlightened friends can do that to different degrees.
Sitting upright is only one of the methods of mediation.
What's the use if we are only relaxed while we sit and meditate,
and be prone to negative emotions for the rest of the time.
**A mobile EEG would be a great tool to remind practitioners their current state of mind
no matter using led, sound or vibration signals.
As for the EEG, measuring brainwaves without wired electrodes is a must. Is it possible to get readings from wireless earplugs, earclips or even body media such as saliva or hair samples?
*you mean telemteric systems. It is possible to do so, but not cheap. In fact one must wear a headband with
electrodes and electronic stuff to send signals to the main instrument (like a walkman). also if you would
like to monitor lets say a day, then you must in some way record all the data. Would be that expencive no-
one could afford. (al least not in the first comming ten or 15 years).
**Good to hear that it's possible. I won't worry about the cost right now. I hope someone would invest it
if he likes my idea. Any wired peripheral is not preferred especially during working, walking, biking and
other outdoor activities. In outdoor conditions, there is no need for recording data. Recording is only
needed indoors when the unit is hooked up with the computer for complete measurement and training.
**I saw an article that described Cleave Backster used an EEG to measure brainwaves from saliva sample.
If this is possible, then we just need a small compartment in the EEG unit filled with our saliva.
Please forgive my imagination, I like to play with this idea further.
If we make it egged shape, and every morning before we go to work ,we just need to open the egg tip and
spit it in. And it would last a whole day. And we can call it S-EEG (The Spitting Egg).
It's kind of gross! Just kidding...
regards.
Frans
**Thanks for your reply, Frans
Skyflyer
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