From: yaniv_vi_at_yahoo.com
Date: 2001-08-16 10:28:39
hi
i have thought about the demonstartion to universities , and this is
my best idea of solution for now :
1. we'll put a special section on the website that will be dedicated
for this .
on this section there would be all design info . also what kind
of electrodes and where to buy , and it's only with laptop ,
in short all the information thta someobdy in university need to
to build this .
also we put all the marketing information ,and all say what's our
problems and status is :
trying to find a lawyer to solve legal problems , so that universities
could purchase this for demoing ...
whta's the statuts of h.w. , s.w. etc . but in short .
also tell that when this problems would be solved , there would
be a possiblity to buy this instead of building , this would
encourage lawyers etc ...
but also this would might discourage people from building to
waiting ?
also i think that maybe we should do what we can to make it easier
for building without legal risks :
sell pcb , maybe sell burned micro , etc ...
and then we talk with univerisities and show them the site ...
2. we should try to find a lawyer not via universities . that's a
task that i think it was a mistake to leave , because we counted
blindlly on univerisites , but ...
3. maybe poeple that have the machine, or buy the machine from
jeorg , would go to univerisities in there areas , and demo it ?
i wouldn't mind doing it when i come back from traveling . but it
would be only novemeber december possibly .
4. trying to find some manufactorer who would do sell this with his
responsibility . maybe we could .
5. maybe at this stage what we can demonstrate would be without
connection to electrodes , but only to some signal generator or test
circuit , and this is what we write on the device , a measurment
device ,etc . and by this we won't be liable . and also the
universities would sign something that were not responsible if they
connect this to human skull...
just only for the first part , until univerisites we'll see the
pooetential and help legaly .
6. and agin , fidning legal help ....
so using this ideas , i think we could get to demoing this to
universities . not perfectly but ....
sincerly yaniv vilnai
--- In buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com, yaniv_vi_at_yahoo.com wrote:
> hi
> few ideas about solution of legal problems :
> in order of making them simple at east for this stage , maybe the
> manufactorer would sell this as kit form
> (it could be total kit - components and boards et ,
> or just cards .we should decide how ).
> we would tell to any university that this is because legal
probelms .
> they would have to build it .
> i would be harder on the university , but still .
> or maybe we just send them to the site .
> this is one way .as i think of it now , i think we should have did
> this before long time .but what to do , it's life :)
>
>
> the other would require some one with legal experience to help .
> we can all raise ideas ,but we need a lawyer .
>
> about fixing , and product support , were not yet at this stage -
> it's just for universities .
>
>
> all the information about electrodes ,and laptop requirement etc .,
> can you please put on your site near the design info , so people
> we'll have it made ?
>
>
> sincerly yaniv .
>
>
> --- In buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com, "Joerg Hansmann" <info_at_jhansmann.de> wrote:
> > Hi yaniv ,
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: yaniv vilnai
> > To: Rob Sacks ; Joerg Hansmann ; psytrix_at_o... ; peterson_at_d... ;
> buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:03 AM
> > Subject: [buildcheapeeg] demonstartion of openeeg to
universities .
> >
> > >hey people
> > >i wanted to start the work on demonstartion to universities .
> > >so i'll write how i see this isues , what we wnat to achieve ,
> problems , etc .
> > >
> > >what our goals with contact with universities are :
> > > get more poeple to know about us ,. and especailly serious
> people in electronics , psychology etc .
> > > get more poeple to work with us (h.w. - s.w. ) from academic
> staff, students
> > > solve legal problems (get to know poeple from university who
> would help in this)
> >
> >
> > I think legal problems are still an important issue - at least
for
> the manufacturer
> > of the openEEG-device.
> >
> >
> > > help advance brain research and nfb research by this
contacts
> > >
> > >the means to achieve this
> > > 1.show universities what we have done so far
> > > allow them to have easy acess to our machine , at low
cost .
> > > ##currently as i have spoken with jeorg , ther'es a
> posibility to purchase the device at $250 .
> > > it's pretty far form the goal of $100 , but if and
> when it would b emanufactored in u.s.a it would cost around
> > > $100-$150 ,
> >
> > Is this an estimation or did you contact some manufacturers in
USA
> and got some offers ?
> >
> >
> > > so the question is do we tell the universities to
buy
> the device currently at $250 ,
> >
> > Would the universities you contacted really pay for an openEEG or
> do they
> > want free device-samples ?
> >
> > I have read in de.sci.electronics about a simple ECG monitor:
> > The inventor gave dozends of free samples away.
> > In the end no one bought the device and he was sued, because
someone
> > else had a patent for the electrode arrangement.
> >
> >
> > > ad show them the
> > > possibility of getting it to public at $100-$150
but
> telling them it would take more time , or waiting before the demo
> > ,
> > > working all the thing s needed for manufactoring in
> u.s.a ? i prefer to go now , and tell them currently they can
> > > buy it at $250 and explain how the price would be
> reduced . what do you think ?
> > > BTW, jeorg , is all the manufactoring information ,
> including box ,etc , is ready at the website ?
> >
> > Sorry. No.
> >
> > I did not make any progress with the 02 modular version, because
I
> have
> > concentrated on comEEG hardware and software.
> >
> >
> > The only thing available at this time is the tested RS232EEEG01.
> > (and it is _not_ IEC601-1 conforming ...)
> > All more sophisticated versions are _not_ verified by building a
> prototype.
> >
> > Regarding the casing I do not have any CAD drawings. However I
think
> > that a competent manufacturer should very well be able to design
> > a plastic casing that holds the pcb, batteries, switches and
LEDs ,
> > RS232 dsub connector and DIN-connectors for Electrodes.
> >
> >
> >
> > > please send me the address again , cause i think i
> have lost it .
> >
> > www.jhansmann.de
> >
> > >
> > > ##we need to tell universities how to buy the machine ,
> and we need to figure it out ourselfs .
> > > the best possible option if they send the money to
> jeorg , but jeorg , do you have a company they can
> > > send it only to the company and in case of something
> went wrong they can come to you ?
> > > how generally this things are done ?
> >
> > Normally the manufacturer or seller of a device has to give
> guarantee for 1/2 year
> > and repair any defective device for free during this time.
> > Shipping cost in case of guarantee is normally payed by the
> customer.
> > Hardware and Software support (e.g. via telephone or email ) is a
> question of what is
> > negotiated for the sales contract.
> >
> > If there are not too much requests for support I will help of
> course. However
> > if support begins to become a fulltime job the thing has to be
> reconsidered.
> >
> > Another thing is product liability in case that a user gets
> electrocuted or injured
> > by the EEG-device.
> >
> >
> > > ##we need to write some legal liability note that would
be
> sufficent in the case of the universities .
> > > again it's much eaiser then for general people , but
> still we have to do it right .
> > > a question for waldemar (who made contact with
> universities for the purpose of legal help )-
> > > can you ifnd some legal help from some univerisity who
> would help us in this simple task ?
> > > anybody else can find ?
> > > (BTW this version could be only worked with laptop ,
> because it doesn't conform to iec601-1 .it's safe
> > > and isolated , but...)
> >
> > The Laptop must be operated with batteries and _no_ peripherals
or
> power-supply must be
> > connected.
> >
> >
> > > ##when they buy it , they need to have all the design in
> box , with all the essential accessories , like
> > > electrodes for example . or maybe we could the where
to
> buy accessories (less prefered ) ?
> > > joerg , what do you do now for electrodes , how much it
> cost , etc...1?
> >
> > I am using Nihon Kohden EEG-electrodes (for evoked potentials,
> completely shielded, pure silver,
> > plastic mantled, usage with 10-20 paste ).
> >
> > They can be bought at LAZINA http://www.elektroden.de (Germany)
> > Article No. is H851 , a set of 5 electrodes with 2mm plugs
(price:
> 107,--DM without VAT).
> >
> > However I was told that H851 is obsolete now and replaced by
H851A
> that has DIN-plugs
> > and is therefore more costly than H851.
> >
> > The H851 can be attached to the H541 (replacement earclip clamp,
10
> pcs. for 31,--DM, 2 pcs. needed)
> >
> > The 10-20 paste wax I use, is SONOGEL - Electrode Gluey Paste for
> EEG,ECG and EMG
> > (200g pot), price and article number unknown.
> >
> > For connecting to amplifier ground (or right leg driver in the
more
> advanced versions)
> > I use a NIHON KOHDEN Fastclip ECG Electrode (CODE No. 2144-005553)
> > (4 pcs. , 1 pcs. needed) also available at LAZINA.
> > Instead of using the ECG electrode you can alternatively use the
> 5th electrode from the H851
> > package and paste it somewhere on your skin.
> >
> >
> > ...
> > > 3. define things we need to do in the future (task list ) and
> put in or near the demo information
> > > so the univerisites would have acess to it , and wuold
know
> what kinf od help we need .
> > > task list :
> > > #get a finished version , iec601-1 conforming ( irda
> option should be decided in future ) .
> >
> > ACK. That will be the next thing to do for me.
> >
> > > #testing of 10 units
> > > #solving legal problems
> > > #work on open source software
> > > #work on marketing ,raising awareness , etc .
> > > #make contact with american manufactorers , and have
> them sell the device at lowest possible cost .
> > > #work on source for low cost electrodes
> > ...
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Joerg
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : 2002-07-27 12:28:32 BST