From: yaniv_vi_at_yahoo.com
Date: 2001-08-16 07:01:16
hi
few ideas about solution of legal problems :
in order of making them simple at east for this stage , maybe the
manufactorer would sell this as kit form
(it could be total kit - components and boards et ,
or just cards .we should decide how ).
we would tell to any university that this is because legal probelms .
they would have to build it .
i would be harder on the university , but still .
or maybe we just send them to the site .
this is one way .as i think of it now , i think we should have did
this before long time .but what to do , it's life :)
the other would require some one with legal experience to help .
we can all raise ideas ,but we need a lawyer .
about fixing , and product support , were not yet at this stage -
it's just for universities .
all the information about electrodes ,and laptop requirement etc .,
can you please put on your site near the design info , so people
we'll have it made ?
sincerly yaniv .
--- In buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com, "Joerg Hansmann" <info_at_jhansmann.de> wrote:
> Hi yaniv ,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: yaniv vilnai
> To: Rob Sacks ; Joerg Hansmann ; psytrix_at_o... ; peterson_at_d... ;
buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:03 AM
> Subject: [buildcheapeeg] demonstartion of openeeg to universities .
>
> >hey people
> >i wanted to start the work on demonstartion to universities .
> >so i'll write how i see this isues , what we wnat to achieve ,
problems , etc .
> >
> >what our goals with contact with universities are :
> > get more poeple to know about us ,. and especailly serious
people in electronics , psychology etc .
> > get more poeple to work with us (h.w. - s.w. ) from academic
staff, students
> > solve legal problems (get to know poeple from university who
would help in this)
>
>
> I think legal problems are still an important issue - at least for
the manufacturer
> of the openEEG-device.
>
>
> > help advance brain research and nfb research by this contacts
> >
> >the means to achieve this
> > 1.show universities what we have done so far
> > allow them to have easy acess to our machine , at low cost .
> > ##currently as i have spoken with jeorg , ther'es a
posibility to purchase the device at $250 .
> > it's pretty far form the goal of $100 , but if and
when it would b emanufactored in u.s.a it would cost around
> > $100-$150 ,
>
> Is this an estimation or did you contact some manufacturers in USA
and got some offers ?
>
>
> > so the question is do we tell the universities to buy
the device currently at $250 ,
>
> Would the universities you contacted really pay for an openEEG or
do they
> want free device-samples ?
>
> I have read in de.sci.electronics about a simple ECG monitor:
> The inventor gave dozends of free samples away.
> In the end no one bought the device and he was sued, because someone
> else had a patent for the electrode arrangement.
>
>
> > ad show them the
> > possibility of getting it to public at $100-$150 but
telling them it would take more time , or waiting before the demo
> ,
> > working all the thing s needed for manufactoring in
u.s.a ? i prefer to go now , and tell them currently they can
> > buy it at $250 and explain how the price would be
reduced . what do you think ?
> > BTW, jeorg , is all the manufactoring information ,
including box ,etc , is ready at the website ?
>
> Sorry. No.
>
> I did not make any progress with the 02 modular version, because I
have
> concentrated on comEEG hardware and software.
>
>
> The only thing available at this time is the tested RS232EEEG01.
> (and it is _not_ IEC601-1 conforming ...)
> All more sophisticated versions are _not_ verified by building a
prototype.
>
> Regarding the casing I do not have any CAD drawings. However I think
> that a competent manufacturer should very well be able to design
> a plastic casing that holds the pcb, batteries, switches and LEDs ,
> RS232 dsub connector and DIN-connectors for Electrodes.
>
>
>
> > please send me the address again , cause i think i
have lost it .
>
> www.jhansmann.de
>
> >
> > ##we need to tell universities how to buy the machine ,
and we need to figure it out ourselfs .
> > the best possible option if they send the money to
jeorg , but jeorg , do you have a company they can
> > send it only to the company and in case of something
went wrong they can come to you ?
> > how generally this things are done ?
>
> Normally the manufacturer or seller of a device has to give
guarantee for 1/2 year
> and repair any defective device for free during this time.
> Shipping cost in case of guarantee is normally payed by the
customer.
> Hardware and Software support (e.g. via telephone or email ) is a
question of what is
> negotiated for the sales contract.
>
> If there are not too much requests for support I will help of
course. However
> if support begins to become a fulltime job the thing has to be
reconsidered.
>
> Another thing is product liability in case that a user gets
electrocuted or injured
> by the EEG-device.
>
>
> > ##we need to write some legal liability note that would be
sufficent in the case of the universities .
> > again it's much eaiser then for general people , but
still we have to do it right .
> > a question for waldemar (who made contact with
universities for the purpose of legal help )-
> > can you ifnd some legal help from some univerisity who
would help us in this simple task ?
> > anybody else can find ?
> > (BTW this version could be only worked with laptop ,
because it doesn't conform to iec601-1 .it's safe
> > and isolated , but...)
>
> The Laptop must be operated with batteries and _no_ peripherals or
power-supply must be
> connected.
>
>
> > ##when they buy it , they need to have all the design in
box , with all the essential accessories , like
> > electrodes for example . or maybe we could the where to
buy accessories (less prefered ) ?
> > joerg , what do you do now for electrodes , how much it
cost , etc...1?
>
> I am using Nihon Kohden EEG-electrodes (for evoked potentials,
completely shielded, pure silver,
> plastic mantled, usage with 10-20 paste ).
>
> They can be bought at LAZINA http://www.elektroden.de (Germany)
> Article No. is H851 , a set of 5 electrodes with 2mm plugs (price:
107,--DM without VAT).
>
> However I was told that H851 is obsolete now and replaced by H851A
that has DIN-plugs
> and is therefore more costly than H851.
>
> The H851 can be attached to the H541 (replacement earclip clamp, 10
pcs. for 31,--DM, 2 pcs. needed)
>
> The 10-20 paste wax I use, is SONOGEL - Electrode Gluey Paste for
EEG,ECG and EMG
> (200g pot), price and article number unknown.
>
> For connecting to amplifier ground (or right leg driver in the more
advanced versions)
> I use a NIHON KOHDEN Fastclip ECG Electrode (CODE No. 2144-005553)
> (4 pcs. , 1 pcs. needed) also available at LAZINA.
> Instead of using the ECG electrode you can alternatively use the
5th electrode from the H851
> package and paste it somewhere on your skin.
>
>
> ...
> > 3. define things we need to do in the future (task list ) and
put in or near the demo information
> > so the univerisites would have acess to it , and wuold know
what kinf od help we need .
> > task list :
> > #get a finished version , iec601-1 conforming ( irda
option should be decided in future ) .
>
> ACK. That will be the next thing to do for me.
>
> > #testing of 10 units
> > #solving legal problems
> > #work on open source software
> > #work on marketing ,raising awareness , etc .
> > #make contact with american manufactorers , and have
them sell the device at lowest possible cost .
> > #work on source for low cost electrodes
> ...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Joerg
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