From: Jim Meissner (jpmeissner_at_mindspring.com)
Date: 2002-02-12 05:29:57
Dear Doug:
This is the nicest "flame" that I have gotten from you.
> If there is false info out there re
> entrainment, then I really think it should be exposed.
I am not interested in exposing, maybe enlightening. I am simply sharing what I have learned and hoping my suggestion will bear some fruit and allow the researchers on this group to check it out for themselves. Don't believe me, check it out for yourself!
> > How could Monroe Institute be wrong? Well, guess what?
> > Their tapes really work and take "some" people to interesting
> > out of body destinations.
> So how do you explain that then? Placebo effect?
> Are the Monroe papers that say entrainment does change brain
> waves in error, false, or what?
Did you know that Robert Monroe did not need any tapes to go on out of bodytrips around the universe? He developed these tools to help other people to "break through". The Hemi Sync technology developed by him actually didnot "work" on him. He was constantly trying out new tapes on volunteers to see how they worked. It took years of trial and error. The marketing department is not going publish: "Well, we tried a bunch of stuff and somehowit works"! Buy it, you will love it. They hired a PhD to write this marketing stuff after the fact and make it sound scientific.
Doug writes....
> Second, I haven't done much with
> entrainment really, and I haven't measured my brain waves during,
> but Dr Jeffery Thompson's Brainwave Suite (audio only) do have
> an effect on me. They put me into deep relaxation, they seem to
> facilitate visualization of moving color patterns, and they
> also usually lead to very vivid dreaming
Some music speaks directly to the soul. For me, I get tears in my eyes when I listen to Mozart. For some chanting works. Drumming puts some on a Shamanism journey. There are many things that work. Some just sit on a mountain top for years and meditate. Some of these techniques have been aroundfor thousands of years. I have no problem with these things.
I "do" have a problem when someone writes me the following:
> I've read in most places/publications that I've seen that 10.5Hz is goodfor tissue healing/regeneration
> 1.05Hz is the release of HGH in minute quantities.
> 3.5Hz is where the brain learn languages at an accelerated rate.
> 6 and 7 Hz are good for overall learning/recall.
> I want to play with those brain states.
<name withheld>
Do you know that a large percentage of educated people believe this s**t because they read it in some New Age book? They want to know how to get their brain waves to 3.5 Hz. Well a lot of machines are sold to those seekers.What percentage of the buildcheapeeg and Mind-l not only believe this, but know it as an absolute fact? And when sound and light won't do it, you buy a bigger machine and crank up the juice and fry your brain. It is this misconception that I am attempting to correct.
I have talked to a few people on these lists privately and they tell me that they bought a HAL-4, Brain Master, etc, like you did Doug, and it did notshow what they wanted to see. They gave up thinking "they" were doing something wrong because they could not get their brain wave frequency to some stupid number like it said in the book. And another one bites the dust andgives up. Others with more determination, great skill and stubborn belief, build super special filters and frequency shifters that will find those non existing frequencies.
If you had a good EEG machine AND knew what you were looking for or at, youcould do some wonderful biofeedback work. But first you need a good EEG machine. Why don't we all get together and share our talents and build one?
Juergen P. (Jim) Meissner
Check out my Website at www.MeissnerResearch.com
Read about the benefits of the Brain State Synchronizer sounds for improving your life and health.
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Sutherland
To: buildcheapeeg_at_yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [buildcheapeeg] Loose ends: Power
Hi Jim,
> Let me challenge the EEG/NF misconception that is prevalent
> in the New Age circles. Believe it or not, sound frequencies
> played to the ears, either direct frequencies or binaural
> beats, light flashing frequencies in the eyes, CES or
> electrical pulsed frequencies to the brain, do not show up as
> brain wave frequencies on the EEG FFT display. Entrainment by
> that definition does not work, neither can the frequency
> following response be verified!
A couple of comments ....
First I already suggested that you write a book! You have a ton
of interesting experience. Second, I haven't done much with
entrainment really, and I haven't measured my brain waves during,
but Dr Jeffery Thompson's Brainwave Suite (audio only) do have
an effect on me. They put me into deep relaxation, they seem to
facilitate visualization of moving color patterns, and they
also usually lead to very vivid dreaming. I won't argue why
they work but they are definitely doing something.
If it's true that "frequency following reponse" doesn't work,
then I have another suggestion: why don't you do some of your
own scientific/controlled studies and publish papers that
show evidence otherwise? If there is false info out there re
entrainment, then I really think it should be exposed.
But here's where I get really confused, if entrainment does
not work, then why are so many people buying L&S and binaural
beat CD and tapes? They must be doing something or people
wouldn't be too happy with their $300 or $400 units. So what
are they doing, if not entrainment?
> There are no good or bad frequencies
Agreed.
> there are many lists describing all sorts of magic frequencies.
I'm not interested at all in things like this.
> This does not say I don't believe in EEG/NF, but it does not
> work as promised. My Brain State Synchronizer uses direct sounds
> and binaural beats and produces great results, but is not an
> entrainment process using magic frequencies.
I don't see how you can lump EEG/NF together with entrainment,
and say they don't work. You hardly mentioned EEG/NF at all in
the above. The NF method requires YOU training YOURSELF to
change your brain activity, it is just a MIRROR. This is totally
different than everything else you mention. One is controlled
by human alone, the other is reponse to stimuli. The EEG is
just measurement, can't be compared to binaural beats. The EEG
protocols are just a set of rules/targets to help you know
when you're moving the way you want to. This is different than
entrainment and different than your brainwave synchronizer.
> How could Monroe Institute be wrong? Well, guess what?
> Their tapes really work and take "some" people to interesting
> out of body destinations.
So how do you explain that then? Placebo effect?
Are the Monroe papers that say entrainment does change brain
waves in error, false, or what?
Namaste,
Doug
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