From: Dave (dfisher_at_pophost.com)
Date: 2002-02-27 20:32:05
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:39:25 +0100, Joerg Hansmann wrote:
>> At that point, neither. I worked closely with a professor during college years
>> who was a rather interesting cross between Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, and Billy
>> Graham. We did a lot of therapeutic work together, and he had this one
>> technique he called "dream implosion." Essentially, it is reliving dream
>> content from a relaxed, conscious state and then letting the content unfold
>
>This seems to require a great deal of (visual) imagination - a skill that is
>not really available for me ...
This particular process does, as you will consciously relax, eyes closed, and
allow the dream to unfold. The conscious mind takes a side seat. Not a back
seat, but one to the side where it will only interact with the dream content
when it seems appropriate to do so. For example, it may be that as you are
allowing yourself to relax and bring all the details of the dream in question
back into conscious memory, that new elements arise. It might make sense to
interact with these new elements (talk to a person, open a book, peer into the
water, etc.) or simply continue to let the dream content deepen and become more
tangible -- more "textured" and full bodied, such as relaxing into the detail
of the environment, seeing if you can sense sounds, feelings, richer colors,
etc. In a way, this might be called more of a "vision state" because the whole
intent is for an increased awareness of yourself and the world with an openness
to learn.
Perhaps you are not so much a visual learner as a kinesthetic one, or feelings
based, or auditory. Perhaps instead of trying to bring dreaming content back
into visual memory, you can simply relax into the sensations of the dream --
whatever part of it is strongest for you. Then simply keep relaxing while
holding your attention on these sensations, and remain open to surprise as you
relax deeper. This will help the conscious mind that always wants to know what
is going on to quiet, also.
>> in
>> order to offer insight and resolution to personal issues. I had some traumas I
>> was dealing with at the time, and this process was helping me understand the
>> emotive content. Interestingly enough, I would not use this approach to work
>> with disturbing emotional content anymore, but that's another story. It did
>> serve, however, to act as a bridge between my emotive and intellectual self.
>> So I continued to implode my dreams and journal the results. The act of
>> journalling helped me consciously process that which I experienced in the
>> quasi-dream state
>
>In what way does this state differ from "normal" dreams or from lucid dreams ?
Well, in the way that I described above. I guess it might also be described as
an interactive hypnagogic state because of the images experienced, with a touch
of the conscious mind.
In a normal dream, the conscious "I" fully accepts the environment it is
presented as reality. Even if that "I" is wholly different from the "I" of
your waking reality, it is not questioned.
In a lucid dream, those two "I's" get it together. I *know* my own personal
history, that I am lying in bed, and can distinguish that from the dream
environment that I find myself in. And "I" can act and make decisions. In a
normal dream, actions may be experienced or you might be more like an observer
of a movie and removed from those actions, but they are not consciously
directed.
It fascinating, really, because there have been levels to the amount of
consciousness that I have experienced in the lucid dreamscape. Sometimes
something would stimulate a degree of consciousness, but I do not fully
remember that I am really asleep in bed. For example, one time I was dreaming
that I was back in the house we had moved from a couple of years before. I
became aware that I was dreaming, but had thought that I was the "me" back in
that house, not in my present home. Or another time I had several "false
awakenings" where -- and this is kind of hard to follow -- I would become lucid
in the dream, feel the strong vibrations course through my body, feel sure that
I knew who and what I was (which was a full acceptance of the identity of "me"
in the dream), and then wake up as that "me" identity, only to find out that I
had not woken up at all, but was in yet another dreamscape! It is like
recursive dreaming. That happened three levels deep once, and believe me, when
I woke up the fourth time, it took a lot to convince me that I was not going
suddenly awaken.. again. ;-)
>> Lucidity continued to occur spontaneously a couple of times a year after that
>> until I began to explore L/S machines, which took it to a completely new level.
>
>That seems to be interesting. What session types did you use ?
>I assume that it has to something with theta waves (for entering the
>hypnagogic state) and some alpha and beta components to stay conscious.
Well, believe it or not, I did not use a session on manual. I just set the L/S
machine for a 5.5 Hz offset using a carrier wave of 96 Hz. Hmmm... I'm not
sure how the Photosonix Nova Pro splits up the channels, but it was probably a
sine wave of 96Hz in one ear and 101.5Hz in the other. That's it. No fancy
program, no ramp down from beta, into alpha, etc. Just that nice low theta
beat of 5.5.
>> >Very interesting. I am trying to have lucid dreams for several years now,
>> >using the methods of Tholey and LaBerge but with very little success.
>>
>> I've read LaBerge, but am not familiar with Foley.
>
>Paul Tholey has been a German researcher. One of his centres in research was
>utilizing the lucid dream state to enhance motor skills in sportsmen.
>Later he made excessive experiments with the dream ego (e.g. cutting his
>dream body into a left and a right part and see what part contains the "observer"
>or if the observer is split too)
>Some of these experiments about getting rid of the ego led to a state of
>incredible bliss while others were pure horror.
I can resonate with that. For me, there have been moments of such elation and
bliss -- it's so hard to describe, because it is pleasure, and yet a sense of
just being right with everything, and everything perfectly in its place. And
then... a couple of times, utter terror. For example, once in the wee hours of
the morning at a zen monastery, I felt the vibrations course through my body.
I was "half awake" and just relaxed into the vibrations, thinking "Oh, this
should be interesting to project here..." When the vibrations were of
sufficient intensity, I "rolled out" of the bed and into... how can I say this?
Into what was like a crack between realities. It was absolute nothingness. I
screamed, and could not stop screaming. It was the raspy scream of pure terror
that I could not stop, and I was falling... falling. Even during this I kept
telling myself "I am at the monastery... I am at the monastery..." while my
terror continued until finally the fall stopped and I came back into my full
waking self.
Gee, kind of makes you want to experience OBE's now, doesn't it? :) I'm
laughing at myself because I can't believe I am writing some of this, but,
well, you opened the door and I walked through. :)
>> There are some places I
>> really resonate with my own experience (in the way other's reach this
>> particular state) and other things which do not. While I think there are some
>> commonalities which are important, a lot of this is the daily work of
>> recognizing that your dreaming mind and waking mind are the same thing.
>
>So you permanently remind yourself that all you experience could
>be a dream ?
"Permanently?" No, I can't say that I remind myself on a permanent basis,
although writing to you does start some internal shifts inside, kind of like
emotive and mental cogs falling into place. I think that if I was in a
position to live the life of a monastic, or perhaps put post-it notes all over
my house with reminders, that I would be able to live more consciously in this
way, but as it is, I know that I fall too far back into the tides of the
unconscious, the forgetfulness that is all to characteristic of the world of
dreams.
>> They
>> are not separate. Right now I am experiencing myself in a room, typing at a
>> keyboard, having all the same types of sensations that I experienced last night
>> in the dreaming state.
>
>If the experiences are of the same type what makes up the difference
>between the waking "reality" and the dream state ?
That, Joerg, is a most excellent question.
>> It is rather straightforward, and involves many elements found in literature on
>> the subject today.
>
>Then I should know them ;-)
See? Isnt' that great?! :)
>> There is so much more that
>> can be said, that then I would end up writing a book just like everyone else.
>> It gives an idea of the induction process I use, though. Understand that it
>> takes anywhere from 45 minutes to 1 1/2 hours for me to project, and I am not
>> always successful.
>
>Not always but often ?
Depends. It depends how much attention and practice I have been giving to
this. For example, if I have not attempted to consciously project in a couple
of months, it might take 2-3 days of attempts each morning before I reach that
state. If I keep that up, I will be projecting each morning, with a few misses
inbetween. So much depends on my own emotional and mental state. There are
times when the conscious mind just has too tight a grip, or I am too tired and
I will fall right into unconscious sleep.
But as far sleep is concerned, 98% of my dreaming is still the garden variety,
unconscious processing of the mind. I would love to dream consciously every
night, as I think this would enhance the way I experience the day and life in
general (or drive me nuts :). But that is not the case.
I just checked my journal, and the last time I projected was on January 7th, a
good 1 1/2 months ago. As with any of us, I find myself juggling all the
different aspects of my life, and sometimes a spiritual practice which can take
up to 1 1/2 hours each day does not fit.
>I have just subscribed to Mind-L.
>
>However I think that as long as the discussion has some relation to
>brainwaves and NFB protocols, it is sufficiently on topic.
Ok, on that note, then, I will continue here until someone taps us on the
shoulder to have the conversation moved elsewhere. However, to bring it back
into the domain of EEG interest, I do plan on hooking myself up to the EEG
device to see if anything interesting can be seen. Charles Tart has done a lot
of studies in this area, and other than some unusual sleep spindles not being
where they should be (he did a lot of testing on Robert Monroe), I don't recall
anything significant showing up. It's been a while since I've read his
studies, though, so there may be more.
Dave.
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